Episode 34
Transcript
Welcome back to the Fully Nourished podcast, a place to explore where female physiology and feminine energy dance together to shape our life experience. I'm your host, Jessica Ash, functional nutritionist and integrative health coach and I'm inviting you to journey with me through both the scientific and spiritual facets of what it looks like to awaken our feminine radiance and become deeply and fully nourished despite living in a society that is increasingly desperate to erase our female set-apartness. You ready?
As a reminder, everything in this podcast is for education and inspiration only and is not intended as medical advice. Please talk to the appropriate professional when necessary. And please use common sense before making any changes to your diet and lifestyle.
Introducing Sara Sumic
Today's guest is skin whisperer, Sara Sumic. If you don't know who Sara is, I have had the pleasure of running in the same circles and knowing Sara for the past five years. And not only is she an incredible person and mother, but she's also a molecular biologist by trade. And she's had her share of skin struggles, acne struggles. And she's also very aware of the internal terrain, being a primal health coach, she really understands that skin starts from the inside and then kind of moves outward. And so she has this amazing course called the Skin Rebalancing Protocol. She also does personalized one-on-one coaching. And through that she has helped 1000s of women worldwide address all types of skin conditions like adult acne, perioral dermatitis, rosacea, and she takes a really holistic approach. Her goal is the long game, she wants her clients to achieve lasting results and really create confidence in their skin. And the confidence goes deeper than just how the skin looks. She's not only just focused on simple skincare, but she also really understands the skin and respects the skin. She's not focused on trendy terms or fads. But she's actually focused on real results and listening to the skin. She she really respects how it's a living and breathing organ.
I wanted to open up a conversation with her personally just a little bit selfishly, and pick her brain a little bit and learn from her experience a little bit. Because I think that there's a lot of women out there, especially in the holistic health and wellness space that are really confused about skincare. You know, you go on social media, you go on TikTok and here's all these skincare trends. And I mean deep down every single woman wants to prevent aging, loves to have nice skin. So do we really need these like big ten step skincare routines, or can we just slather tallow on our face and never wear sunscreen. And like most things, there's nuance to this conversation. And it's not a one size fits all or generalized approach. And that's why I love this kind of living, breathing approach that Sara has, because she really focuses on simplicity. She also understands the value of having as natural of an approach as possible and really respecting the skin and letting the skin do its thing. But on the same note, she also knows how to bring in certain compounds on certain products in a very strategic approach to get you the results that you want.
So in today's interview, we talk about the skin barrier. We talk about skincare mistakes, we talk about PUFAs, and skincare and do we really need to be avoiding polyunsaturated fatty acids, we talk about how tallow based skincare can sometimes cause problems for certain individuals. We talk about certain aspects of acne, sunscreen, too much skincare and so much more. I hope you really enjoy today's interview.
Jessica: Let's have a good skincare chat because I wish everyone found you before they found anything else. That's that's what I really wanted to say. Like, if everyone could just find Sara before they find anyone else then it would really save them a lot of money, but also a lot of pain.
Sara: I know, thank you so much for that. And the same to you. I mean, I had a client recently who told me you know I found you on Instagram years ago but at that point, I just wasn't ready to receive your message and my message is essentially use less stuff on your face. And I think it's very enticing especially when you're young you know to be this like skincare enthusiast and you're very enticed by all the skincare products and ingredients and all that potential benefits. And then my message is think about your skin health. You know, don't overwhelm your skin. Don't use too much skincare, let your skin heal your skin has amazing capability to heal itself and I think you have to be ready to receive that message. You know, I think you have to have a certain level of like material. Do you or made a lot of? Or like enough mistakes? You know, to arrive at that point?
Jessica: Yeah, it isn't as sexy of a message, I guess. And I know like, no, we're kind of similar in the way we're like nourishment is not always sexy and kind of playing the long game and supporting your health long term is not always the sexiest approach, or the most fun, I guess it is kind of fun to like shop skincare, and just shop all these products and these fancy things and read reviews. And people are like, Oh, my gosh, this has changed my skin forever, but not really understand the why behind it, or have any type of lens of how your viewing skin through if you're just like, I just want my skin to look good. It's very different than I want my skin to be healthy, so that it's resilient. That's at least how I kind of see it.
Sara: Yes, yes, exactly. So I understand, especially when you are dealing with a very visible skin issue, you just want something that's going to fix it very quickly. So it is very enticing to think, oh, the only reason I haven't fixed it yet is because I haven't found that magical product, it's you just got like, it's very, very alluring. Whereas changing your daily habits and actually thinking, oh, the reason that I still don't have beautiful skin is because maybe some of my daily habits are just messing with my progress that's much more difficult to face, right, it's much more difficult to change. And so obviously, a certain level of maturity, you know, is is necessary to actually, you know, like, really be honest with yourself. And it took me many years, I was for a very long time at a place where I was just finding, you know, trying to find some sort of holy grail product, you know, trying one thing after another, you know, trying for a quick fix, and in a really last, you know, so as you know very well.
Jessica: Yeah, yeah, it's funny because you do see so many people talking about these holy grail products. And I feel like with the explosion of Tik Tok, you have this extra added layer of just everyone's trying everything. So I guess we could rewind a little bit. I'm curious to hear a little bit more about your skincare journey personally, and then how you've arrived to this place where you're helping so many women. I mean, you've helped so many women heal their skin and their skin barrier. And I feel like I want to shout it from the rooftops, I always recommend anybody that asks about skin to you, because you are so capable of just kind of filtering things down into a very simple approach like and is really no BS. I even just recently read your Skincare Barrier Fix book, because I just wanted to kind of brush up thank you, I always learned so much from it. And gosh, there's so much content in there for really free I was able to just download on Kindle, and I was just like, oh my gosh, there's just so much here that is not always talked about. So how have you become a skincare magician?
Sara: Oh, thank you so much for that I really appreciate the support, it really means a lot. It's been a very long process. You know, I also was somebody who was struggling with acne for many years. It's like your typical acne story. It starts somewhere around, you know, early teenage years, I was around 14, but my acne started and I had like periods where it was okay, it was just kind of like this comedonal acne, sometimes it was like very cystic and very painful. My skin would go up and down and I tried you know everything under the sun, just like your usual person with acne, they go to the dermatologist, you do several rounds of like oral antibiotics, topical antibiotics, like all this stuff. And so results never really last, obviously. So as you kind of like move into late teenage years, I remember I was kind of like, at that point really experimenting much more with my skincare and nowadays for teenagers, I cannot even imagine how much worse it must be with TikTok and like everything that they're bombarding us with, I think it's much worse, growing up with that surrounding you, then I you know, when I was a teenager where there wasn't really social media, so yes, you could Google things and you could kind of like, listen to a dermatologist or dissertation. And it was like a lot of information to take in. But now it's like on a different level. So I can see where a lot of confusion and just like so much noise is coming from again, it must be very, very difficult to resist also all of that. So yeah, the TikTok era is something else. But I think it's also my story kind of like continues into, you know, ultimately being put on hormonal birth control, which is also something I know a lot of women can relate to, and where we didn't really know and realize or were informed of just how many side effects were you know, in kind of like occur over the years. And it will kind of like get worse and worse, especially, you know, going to college. And like with the college stress, maybe not eating that well. So my skin was really at its worst, I would say like my early 20s. And at that point, my skin was so tired of skincare like I couldn't kind of start to realize that and I was like just thought to myself, why don't I just stop trusting blindly people around me you know, the endless dermatologist I was visiting, you know, cetaceans, the treatments, whatever, and just kind of like learn for myself about the skin. So that was kind of like the beginning of my enlightenment so to speak, because what I started learning, you know, reading through dermatologist sources learning about for the first time ever about the skin barrier and skin health, I was absolutely horrified at my skincare practices up to that point, because I realized just how much I was damaging my skin, how much worse I was making the situation with my skincare. Again, I was absolutely horrified. And so I was also like, mind blown at how I've never heard words like skin barrier or skin health. I mean, skin barrier is a very established, you know, term or concept in dermatology, you know, we know so much about the structure of the skin and layers of the skin, the maturation of skin cells and everything. And still none of the especially nowadays in TikTok. And like, you know, people don't really understand that concept that well. And I really dedicated many years to that, and also kind of try to observe people in the real world and my clients, my students kind of like what really works like how does the skincare really interact with the skin barrier. So my own journey just to conclude, I hold a bachelors and masters in molecular biology. So I was very much trained to kind of like, look into the details, always kind of like think critically. And so I started to really apply that to my skincare. Like I was wondering, like, why didn't I do this before? But anyways, I started to kind of like question everything that was told at that point, oh, you have to cleanse morning and evening, you always you have to use a moisturizer, you have to exfoliate, you have to do this you have to... I was like, why? You know who said that? Like, why would that be true? So I've really started to question everything. And I arrived at like a very, very simple routine. After a while I kind of just allow my skin to heal itself. It took me about a year like at that point that this was like 2012, 13, when the last of my acne kind of started to really disappear, I would say, and we will probably get to that. Some of the topical, like face oils were helpful to me, you know, to correct the linoleic acid deficiency was most likely my kind of final problem. And so I would say since I was somebody who has always been pretty healthy, I did have a lot of let's say, quote unquote, internal issues, which you know, we can also cover because of you know, hormonal birth control history, antibiotics, history and all that I have really quite a few, I would say estrogen dominance issues for a while. And so this was definitely contributing to my acne. But I also started to or were always kind of like eating healthy, I was always conscious of that. So I think for me, the biggest piece of the puzzle really was that topical care, and just removing the irritation that I was reflecting about my skin for so many years. And just like finally, my skin to heal. So I've learned a lot through that process, I started Healthy Skin Glows blog a few years later, and that kind of like turned into just like more and more, you know, reach to people, we will start to you know, reach out to me, I started to kind of like observe okay, what actually worked for other people? Did they say, did they have the same experiences I did, you know, and really kind of accumulated a lot of, you know, my knowledge, I could observe a lot of patterns. So this is where kind of like a lot of my advice is coming from just observing people over so many years, not just my own experience.
Jessica: Yeah, well, which is I feel like the most powerful way to learn because yeah, we can know things on paper. And yeah, we have our own experience. And of course, our experience gives us a little bias. But when you start to see these patterns, especially when you're working with women who are so sensitive and kind of aware of what's like a lot of times, they're already kind of noticing patterns, or they're, they're very much experimenting and trying different things, it can be very helpful to get that data because that's really what it is, is data. So it's just, it's really powerful. So I guess before we dive into some of the biggest mistakes when it comes to the skin barrier, can you just explain in I guess, simpler terms, if someone doesn't really know at all, what is the skin barrier? How is it supposed to function?
Sara: Yes. So that is basically the uppermost layer of our skin, the one that you can touch structurally called a stratum corneum. And it's kind of in dermatology, the analogy is to like a brick wall where the bricks are skin cells, corner sites, or we usually refer to them as dead skin cells. I mean, they may be dead, but there's still a lot of activity going on in the uppermost layers. So those will be kind of like the bricks and then they're held together by the mortar or glue which are various lipid molecules, right, and this structure has to be very cohesive and very robust in order to perform its function and functions are many from you know preventing too much water loss from within the skin, keeping your skin moisturized but also preventing your entire body from becoming dehydrated. Also, grants entry of a lot of, you know, pollutants, toxins, pathogens into the deeper layers of our skin and the bloodstream. So it performs very, very essential function, skin, there's so much enzymatic activity in this uppermost layer of the skin. And we are oftentimes disturbing normal skin processes by let's say, using too much skincare, again, over exfoliating, over cleansing, very hot water, things like that. So the skin doesn't really like to be interfered with a lot, because there is so much of that enzymatic activity. And just like, you know, the skin just needs to be left alone to to function to perform all these important processes. And this is something where I think I'm trying to kind of like put more into the conversation about the skin, not just various skincare ingredients and their benefits, but also like, what does our skin actually need to function optimally, right?
Jessica: Because I guess in a perfect healthy, balanced world, this skin would almost be this self regulating organ like you don't, you don't sit there and try to, you know, mess with your heart or your liver all the time, or like rub things all over these organs. But we've kind of forgotten that the skin is an organ. So I think of functions, for example, like exfoliation, or zone hydration, those are things that it when it's healthy, it should actually be able to do on its own.
Sara: Correct. Wow. So I when I say this, people usually are just shocked. And my clients are just like, What are you even saying? And then I asked them, because usually these are women who are married? And then I ask them, Does your husband use any skincare? And the answer is always no. What is his skin? Like? Oh, it's perfect. Every single time. Because the answer is the same. And then also like how do you think? Then they say like, Oh, I just don't understand. It was like because his skin is able to completely maintain itself. So I'm not saying that we need zero skincare in every in any situation. But the skin, healthy skin is indeed capable of cleansing and exfoliating and maintaining itself. So there's a natural process called desquamation, where these dead skin cells or corneal sides are just shutting off continuously of the surface of our skin in like, you know, a timely manner continuously. And so when this process is disrupted via various pathways, this is when we run into trouble and can get acne, you know, skin texture, comedones, etc. So this is actually kind of how acne starts, in essence, but it's funny, because people usually are very shocked to hear that, but then how did we exist for so many, you know, like millennia without any skincare our skin was, you know, fine. And also, so many people today who don't use anything except water, their skin is usually like the best you have ever seen. Like, we have to ask yourself why. And I've asked myself this for, you know, a long time.
Jessica: So yeah, it definitely poses the question of what's going on. So in your work, what are the biggest factors that are driving acne because I'm seeing that there's a breakdown in the skin barrier, and how the skin is functioning. So what are what are the patterns that you're seeing the most?
Sara: I will say my typical client is somebody who is already very conscious about nutrition and you know, healthy diet, healthy lifestyle, but their skin is still very much acne prone. So they're still not seeing any progress even after they have corrected a lot of their health markers. So the skin is very peculiar here because it will respond to a lot of different stimuli. So for a lot of women that I see, actually their history of certain, you know, medications like antibiotics, hormonal birth control, like in my case, combined that with maybe restrictive, eating, you know, fad diets, you know, excessive chronic stress in their lives. So stressors would be a big big trigger for for our skin because the impact on hormones and hormones will obviously impact our skin. So those will be the internal triggers. And the thing with the skin is that they don't have to be present for a very long time, you literally just would need to have like a bout of you know, let's say a stressful year during college years or something and then you just continue to have very irritating skincare practices and then you're just continuing that inflammation in your skin barrier. You're continuing to have acne even though let's say the initial trigger something stressful, you know, let's say you know stress or restrictive eating has been like corrected right like so they have healed internally but your acne is still continuing because of the irritating practices that are just perpetuating the inflammation in the skin barrier and acne at its core is really inflammatory skin condition. So I would say this is the picture that I see almost on a daily basis with my clients. And so this happens because they really were not aware of all the ways that they were irritating their skin barrier topically with like even the best products out there. So usually people are very obsessed with like finding the best products. But that is really just one tiny part of the picture or like a puzzle of, you know, having optimal skincare routine, like we have to understand what really is adequate for our skin at that moment in time. So this is much more challenging than just like finding the best product that has the best reviews online.
Jessica: So what are some of those mistakes that you feel are keeping acne going, even if they're writing these internal issues, because I do feel like the skin’s kind of the last thing to heal. But also, if you're constantly irritating it or constantly inflaming it, it's not going to help.
Sara: Yes, exactly. So I would say definitely overuse of skincare. So for example, the way people view skincare and especially people sometimes reach out to me and tell me like, oh, but I've heard about all the ingredients that you talk about. I was like, okay, but you've probably heard and have tried to think about it in this way. You think, Okay, this exfoliant like salicylic acid, or mandelic acid is going to exfoliate my skin and make my skin smoother. Okay, I'm going to use that, then Vitamin C is going to make my skin brighter, I'm going to use that, then a Retinol is going to, you know, help me with anti aging, I'm going to use that. And then like on and on it goes. But then when you combine it together into one routine, and you're using all these active ingredients, it's simply too overwhelming for the skin barrier. Because you're applying hundreds of different ingredients, you're applying the active ingredients, which do introduce certain levels of irritation, which then basically equals inflammation. So our skin needs to be able to recover from that momentary irritation in order to basically reap the benefits. So let's say using a vitamin C serum, there is definitely always irritation that you introduce with using such a product, but then your skin recovers overnight. And your skin is like all nice and glowing the day after. Okay, but if you do too much, if you're using several different actives, you're using a 10 skip step skincare routine, you're really just getting the side effects, not any sort of benefits from that skincare. So this is very, very common, especially in today's era of TikTok and like you know, 10 step skincare routines and people just really being focused on the benefits that they can receive from their skincare products and different ingredients without understanding how this actually impacts the skin barrier when you combine it together into a routine. So what's really ironic about this is that if they were to just pick a single active ingredient to use, instead of five different ones, they would actually have better results because it wouldn't be so overwhelming for the skin barrier. So this is a very, very common problem that I see. Another problem is people may be especially, I guess my sample of people is a bit biased because they're again already bit conscious about using non toxic, you know, skincare and toxic ingredients. And so a lot of them come to me using certain natural skincare that just didn't vibe with their skin, and they really tried very hard to use it to implement it. And that can be face oils, to tallow, to shea butter, to certain butters, essential oils. And all these things can be very inflammatory for a lot of people with sensitive acne prone skin. Not to say they cannot, you know, work for a lot of other people, I've definitely seen them work, but they can also be pretty problematic for a lot of people that I've seen that I work with.
Jessica: I've definitely seen an uptick in people using tallow based skincare, which is something that I have noticed and I personally cannot use healthy skincare, it just clogs my pores and keeps me pretty irritated. Or it has to be very, like not a regular part of my routine, like kind of just once in a while thing. And I know there's plenty of people like you say it works for because they're screaming it from the rooftops, like once I switched to animal based skincare, like all of my problems went away. But I think there's a lot of women that follow that advice and then are wondering what's wrong with my skin? Or this new trend where it's like no PUFAs in your skincare? Because these PUFAs are going to oxidize. Could you dive a little bit more into like, because you talked about how the skin barrier has these lipids that connect these, you know, it's it's a part of the living, breathing barrier, what lipids are included in that barrier?
Sara: This is a really, really good question. So in in these lipids you know as a part of the skin barrier as a part of sebum, we have various lipids from cholesterol triglycerides, to ceramide to free fatty acids and actually the ratio of these free fatty acids most of which are so linoleic acid or the you know infamous Omega six is the predominant one and we also have palmitic acid and oleic acid in they have to be in a very specific ratio or amount in this in the sebum in order for the sebum and these like skin barrier structure to be functioning. If we have too much of one of them, things can get a bit you know, too inflamed like it causes this immune response from the skin. And I think this is what happens with tallow for a lot of people when they experience more congestion more acne because we know from research that overwhelming the skin with palmitic acid, which tallow is very rich source of can actually be really inflammatory because it introduces an imbalance in the ratio of these free fatty acids in our sebum in our skin barrier. So this is the best, or the mechanism that I think could explain it, I'm not entirely sure that that's what's happening. But based on the research that I've seen, it is pretty conclusive that the process that can start acne, we have a lot of pro inflammatory signaling molecules included in there like interleukin one alpha beta, interleukin six, tumor necrosis factor alpha, and they are elevated when we apply palmitic acid to the skin. So if we know that tallow is a very rich source of that, we can conclude okay, this might have something to do with people experiencing more congestion, more acne, because it causes inflammatory response in some people, some people have very, very, very good results, this kind of like oh my goodness, this fix of my issues. And so I think partly because they have probably stopped all the other skincare that was probably irritating them and like an end their skin is just dealing better with tallow. So we have bacteria, obviously, there's an entire microbiome on our skin composed of various different strains of bacteria, mites, fungi, etc. And this bacteria has enzymes hydrolases, which break down the fats. And this is continuously you know, happening with our own lipids, our own, you know, in our own skin barrier, but it also the oils and fats that we apply on the skin. And so my guess is that maybe we process them a bit differently, because we do have maybe a bit different composition of that microbiome. So maybe this could be why some people respond really well to tell where it's quite inflammatory for some other people. And the problem is that people are usually very convinced that okay, as long as I'm using non toxic natural skincare, it's also acne safe, it is absolutely not. And it takes them a while to realize that because the way that it usually occurs, is that they gradually develop more and more clogged pores, more and more skin texture and congestion. And then at some point, this starts to getting more and more inflamed. And by that point, several months have passed since they started tallow and then they'll really connect it to that event, like they don't really connect that it's the tallow as it's caused it. So like, I know that it takes months oftentimes for the congestion to develop. And so they don't really connect the dots. And so by that time, they're just like, oh, maybe it's something in my diet, let me be even more restricted with my diet, like, let me fill up with my supplements or something else, right? So yeah, this is kind of like, not so easy, oftentimes to pinpoint that that's the case. And also for a lot of people, they're in this situation where maybe something is like slightly making their acne worse. And so they never really realized that their skincare is a source of that, you know, like more acne basically popping up, because it's so subtle. So this is, I think, very, very common situation that I see. Like, I'm kind of trained like, I can see it more easily. But for people, it's usually not that obvious.
Jessica: That's very interesting. That's super interesting, because how many times have we had our skin start acting up and just think it's very something that we recently did, and not months and months and months ago? Exactly. Because you can maybe have some good results at first, right? Especially if you're using a lot of inflammatory skincare. So I can see how maybe you could have a little bit of a oh, this is a little better, and then just keep it a part of your routine and not even realize. So I want to rewind a little bit because you said something that could piqued my interest of you know, many people are using skincare and like layering in these 10 step routines. Instead of I'm getting from you that you more adapt your skincare to what your skin is needing at that point. So do you recommend more kind of intuitive skincare where you're watching the skin and kind of sitting with the skin and adding in the ingredients that are needed as necessary? Like how do you approach that?
Sara: Yes, yes, exactly. So the skincare routine doesn't have to be super rigid. And actually with each client, I kind of like to give them a few options. Let's say for morning skincare. Okay, maybe try a gentle cleanser or try just let's say a honey mask or like a toner cleanser, something gentle like see, let us observe your skin over the course of a few weeks and see how your skin is responding. Is it maybe more moisturized? Is it maybe getting more clogged? If you don't use a cleanser, like we always kind of like trying to see where the skin is at and how the skin is responding to different skin care interventions because it's ultimately only by this, like small experimentation that you can arrive at your you know, unique, you know, optimized skincare routine. But yeah, it doesn't have to be super rigid. I think it's the main tenet, I would say is the simplicity. It's the simplicity that really allows the skin the space and time to heal itself. It was interesting and recently I've seen a person that following Instagram she showed a screenshot of basically her non toxic makeup that she has been using for a while and then she stopped it and then she said how much healthier her skin started to look after like few months, because she was like, Oh, I thought this was like, absolutely fine, it’s non toxic. But then when I looked at all the ingredients, this is like over 100 ingredients that I was applying to my skin on a daily basis. So yes, they're all like level one or two on EWG. But like, you know, it was still impacting my skin barrier. And it was damaging and irritating my skin barrier at a lower level, where I didn't have acne or a rash or anything extreme like that. But like my skin wasn't as glorious as and as healthy as it is right now when I just don't really irritated with anything. And that was like so spot on. Like, that's exactly what I'm trying like the message I'm trying to get across. Wow,
Jessica: Wow. Do you notice that sometimes when people switch over, like in this girl's case, she stopped her foundation? Or people are coming off with these, like 10 step skincare routines? Is there a period where the skin does get a little bit worse? Or like what does that transition look like? Because I know that's usually people's fear is they're trying to do anything they can to just keep it calm down. And if anything starts to pop up, they get scared and they want to go back or say like this isn't working like what does that transition look like? Just so people understand?
Sara: This is excellent question. And it's actually what I'm trying to answer within my entire course: the Skin Rebalancing Protocol. So this entire course was made because I tried to answer that exact question, like how to I actually transition into a simpler, more natural skincare without my acne exploding. Because a lot of people who are my students, they come from very extensive routine, very harsh routines that were keeping their acne in check to an extent, right, and they don't want for the acne to explode again. So the problem is that even if those routines worked initially, they're not going to work forever, because they eventually they were down the skin barrier. So they have to transition off such harsh skincare sooner rather than later. And so you have to have a really good plan on how to do that. So within my course, I kind of take into account your previous routine, and how to gradually reduce certain active ingredients. So let's say if you really use a lot of actors I asked you to okay, just focus on two that you think are most helpful if you just use two, okay, let us just keep one, I usually ideally just like to keep one active ingredient that is like actively reducing inflammation if that's the usually that's the issue really, for people with acne. And so this can be like you know, various different ingredients and people depending on their acne type their skin condition where it's oily, dry, you know, the congestion level, etc. We're gonna pick that single ingredient or like a product and then we're gonna stick to that alongside like a very gentle let's say cleanser and moisturizer routine. So this routine the meaning behind it is to allow your skin again the space and time to repair itself but also do something proactively to reduce that inflammation and keep acne in check in a gentle manner that isn't so overwhelming to the skin barrier. And this usually definitely works if you're also working on your quote unquote internal triggers. You're balancing your hormones, you're working on your healthy daily habits, nutrition, all of the other stuff.
Jessica: Okay, that yeah, that's that that makes sense. Going back to the PUFAs and the polyunsaturated fats and the needs for linoleic acid in the skincare or in the skin barrier. Do you find that some people actually respond well to what would be typically considered like a PUFA oil? You know, I know some of these oils can actually be very nourishing and calming to the skin.
Sara: Yes. So again, we know from research and this was one of the initial papers I remember reading on like acne that they have found acne patients actually to have linoleic acid deficiency not like systemically in their body but just like locally in their sebum. And to me, I think it kind of makes sense at a time and so I tried to experiment with different oils that were rich in linoleic acids such as hemp seed oil or grapeseed oil, and I personally had pretty good success. So by the time that I introduced them, I really only had more of less like comedonal acne that was leftover like I had periods of like very painful cystic acne, but those were like, luckily behind me at that point. And so these oils really healed my skin in this like last phase of healing where I really just struggle with that, you know, comedones and congestion, it really did help me and so I think from my personal experience, it really there is definitely something to that because lack of linoleic acid in the serum has shown to actually accelerate micro Komodo from formation basically those like small clog pores. And so I would say there's definitely healing potential in these oils. Some people again, they're not gonna process it well, and they're just gonna like aggravate acne no matter which oil it is, I've definitely seen those cases. For some other people like myself, we do see a lot of kind of benefits when it comes to acne, especially with certain oils that are, you know, high quality, let's say, you know, cold pressed something like again, grapeseed oil, hemp seed oil, seabuckthorn also works well, for a lot of people, I think, like black seed oil is also really helpful one, so we want these oils to obviously be, you know, extracted in a good way, you know, with these very fragile fatty acids preserved as much as possible combined with antioxidants that are going to protect them both within the product, but also when applied on the skin. So those will be I think, situations where we do see some healing benefits from you know, PUFAs and so like zero PUFA skincare is not a magic bullet for everybody. Again, I'm always happy, like nobody happier than me when somebody tells me to tell always working for me, like literally, like I'm the happiest person, you know, because when somebody is having a success with such simple natural skincare, that's all you need for the rest of your life, like literally don't have to do anything else, like amazing, you know, but that's just unfortunately not the case for everybody. So, and it's funny, because a lot of times people will tell me like, Oh, Sara, can you just help me make my skin or like transitioning to natural skincare? I've tried so many times, but I, you know, my skin just doesn't like oils, doesn't like tallow, like how can I make my skin like tallow. And then I go, I cannot make your skin do anything like I would just be there to guide you to find what your skin responds well to. And this is really, you know, the difference there. So, so yeah, I think natural skincare will not work for everybody. And there was also something you mentioned earlier that want to address that is very important. You mentioned how initially, certain products can seem to work really well. And then after a time, it starts to kind of clog up the skin, the skin starts to be more acne prone. And this is so so true, not just with tallow, but also with many other products, whether it be mainstream or natural skincare, whether it be like active ingredients, and also especially essential oils. So essential oils are very much like antibacterial, antiseptic, and so they will very quickly lower that inflammation. And so it will appear like they're working magic on your skin, but then they do over time inflame the skin barrier. So let's say in the first few weeks or so you can see Oh, my goodness, this is so working so well. But then after three months, your skin is going to start to get worse, and you're not going to be like you're not gonna know why that started to happen. Like you're gonna blame something else.
Jessica: Yeah, I learned that the hard way I know, for there was a period of time a while back, it was like five or six years ago, I was using skincare with essential oils, and citrus oils. And I know that those are both like they have some type of photosensitive nature to them. But they also it was all of a sudden, my skin had always been very resilient to anything, I could literally just slap on coconut oil, and it would be like, that's fine. And after I decided to get more fancy with my skincare. And after I use this product for a period of like three or four months, my skin has never been the same, it has always been very inflamed, red, I've needed to take great care in protecting my skin barrier. And I think there was a very severe damage that took place when I use that essential oil product. And it it didn't happen right away. At first I was like, Oh, this is amazing, wonderful, whatever. And never again, you know.
Sara: You have no idea how common this is literally, this is so common. And with, as you said like something was damaging your skin barrier and you have come to a point where your skin was so sensitive, you know, it kind of really wasn't itself anymore. And so I have a lot of clients who have really come to this point where they start to react to almost every single skincare product they try because your skin barrier is already inflamed. The immune, the immune system is already on the high alert. And so your skin barrier is you know, very leaky, very sensitive, very reactive and you're literally going to react to products that you were able to use without any problem for years up to that point. So I have clients, some of them cannot really use even like the gentlest cleansers moisturizers. I have clients who will literally react to every single moisturizer they have tried, and so we really have to like choose like do no skincare for a while. I'll just focus on like, you know, diet, lifestyle for a while because their skin barrier has been so inflamed over time that they have come to a point where they just cannot tolerate anything. So as your skin barrier heals as it becomes more, you know, functional, more robust, this is when you actually can tolerate more skincare, you can actually then see benefits from that skincare as well.
Jessica: Okay, I'm curious, do you see that seasonal changes when the skin barrier is damaged? Do you see that people are a little less resilient to seasonal changes? or environmental pollutants? How does that fit in? Because I think everybody in an ideal world would love to use natural skincare, but we don't necessarily live in a very natural environment. So I'm just curious, like, if you have healthy skin, can you handle these environmental pollutants and these seasonal changes without a problem? Or do you still need to support your skin? Through those?
Sara: This is a really good question. So I would say, you know, there's a lot of stuff and you know, so much about our modern world that really doesn't allow us to just, you know, do nothing, oftentimes, but yeah, I will come to that. So with the pollutants, obviously, if you live in a highly polluted area, there is a really high chance that all of that is impacting your skin in some way, maybe it's raising the oxidative damage to your skin. And so some sort of, you know, a plan, like a skincare plan is going to protect your skin can be a very smart thing to do, whether it's super necessary, maybe not usually the one with the best intentions, we end up damaging the skin. So for a lot of people, when I say to them, I'll just like skip morning exfoliation, for example, because you have literally just removed a lot of your skin barrier. And like you have removed the defenses that your skin has put up over the night, so that you can face the harsh environment the next day. So you've just removed all that, right. So like, just kind of like having a bit of a plan and understanding how the scheme works, you can protect yourself against a lot of like the impact of those pollutants. So a strong skin barrier will kind of repel them of you know, like, especially from from them entering your skin. But how necessary is to use skincare in that way. You know, again, probably beneficial if you're dealing with skin issues, I think there are like other things in our modern environment that are maybe more problematic, like the ever increasing toxic load is probably more of an issue because it really weakens your skin barrier from the inside we are impact on your liver health or your hormonal health, on you know, so many other systems in your body. And so this also weakens the skin barrier. Because as you as you also pointed out yourself many times the health and like the beauty of our skin is not the utmost importance to our body when the body is in survival mode. And a lot of things in our environment like you know, an are the environmental toxins, pollutants, things like that it can put our body in sort of like a stressed out state and survival mode. And so it can start to break down your skin barrier just because your body doesn't really prioritize building this very healthy robust skin barrier. So maybe in that way, it will be more of an impact.
Jessica: Okay, okay, that's good to know. Because I think so many people are focused on oh my gosh, the sun and oh, my gosh, all these environmental pollutants, but not really focused on what's going on inside.
Sara: Yes, yes, yes, I think this internal part is very important, especially when it comes to skin barrier health. So it's obviously not just a topical, topical part, there's definitely many ways in which we can damage your skin barrier topically, but in order for our skin barrier to heal, especially if you have history of damaging your skin barrier, like your skin does need a lot of nutrients will have energy to repair itself, which again, just make sense, right? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Jessica: It, it's almost like it needs the energy to repair but also to self regulate. And it would make sense that if we didn't have that the lipids in the skin would be imbalanced, you know, the exfoliation would maybe be too slow. Like it just makes sense that everything would be kind of conserving and slowing down to not repair at the correct pace. So that makes total sense. I am curious about blue light, too, that might just fit into the environmental pollutants. I know. Everyone's always so focused on the sun, the sun in the sun. And I'm curious, so does light from screens affect the skin at all? Do you know anything about that?
Sara: Yes. So it definitely does. So with sunlight. Sunlight obviously contains, like, you know, a whole spectrum. So there's red light, there's blue light and sunlight but they're kind of balanced, balanced out. So sunlight, there's definitely a healthy dose that our skin needs and craves in order to also regulate many of these processes in the skin. So for example for a lot of people so me in the past, I was always struggling more with acne in the wintertime than the summertime because the sun and proper sun exposure will regulate that inflammation in the skin and you know, it can really kind of just like soothe that excess inflammation also regulates the maturation of these skin cells keratinocytes so they can have like, make sure that they are not sticking for too long on your skin and clog up your pores and instead of shutting off your skin in a timely manner, so sunlight very, very important when right when done, you know in the right dose, of course. But when it comes to blue light, yes, we do have some research shows that it can introduce again oxidative damage to the skin, you know, accelerate skin aging, worsen hyperpigmentation, things like that. I think there's obviously a trade off. We live in our modern lives in terms of computers, especially I think millennials don't like they look at their phone like 550 times per day or something like that, you know, sort of sleep, there's a trade off there. If you want to be connected to your devices, it does impact the skin. But yeah, it's it's there. Obviously, there's, there's there are ways to kind of shield yourself a little bit from that, you know, spend as much time outside in the real nature having just like gentle daily sunlight exposure. So I know the sun is very demonized in there in recent years, especially with the rise of SPF and all the other craze about that. So it's another thing I think maybe both of us have gotten online before like even speaking something against the SPF.
Jessica: But yeah, it it's one of those things. I'm wondering, do you have an approach like a more nuanced approach with sunscreen or SPF? Obviously, from what you said before, I'm assuming that people that are going outside just constantly slathered in SPF are probably doing more harm than good, especially if they're struggling with skin issues. But then on the flip side, too much sun exposure can also increase aging. Is that Is that true? Or is that more of?
Sara: Absolutely, absolutely. I think there's kind of like a bell curve. Like if we do too little, obviously, it's going to impact our health. Also, our skin will suffer if we don't have enough vitamin A, if we aren't making electric oxide, if we aren't regulating the hormonal systems that kind of depend upon proper sunlight exposure. But obviously, when overdone, if you're like baking in the sun for hours on end, of course, you're going to eat your skin, of course, you're going to damage your skin. And I think this is something that really kind of like gets lost in the, you know, world of social media, because usually it's all like black and white. So if I say we need, you know, sun exposure, oh, you're saying that means the more the better, like no, there's definitely limits. So if for somebody who lives in a pretty sunny area, of course, you know, find a good mineral based sunscreen to wear, you know, wear hats when it comes to vitamin D production. And we kind of forget that our face is a very minor area on our body. So you're not going to generate enormous amount of vitamin D by just exposing your face, like you do need bigger parts of your body to be exposed as well. So it's not as crucial whether you're going to expose your face or not. So if you're concerned about your face, okay, use your sunscreen use your, you know, hat no problem for somebody who lives here in Norway, like I do, especially in the wintertime. Like the UV index is zero for six months. Like I see no reason. So yeah, it's I think it has to be a bit more nuanced. surrounding that. Yeah.
Jessica: You mean you're not donning on your gloves and your hat in the winter?
Sara: No, my goodness. I mean, yeah, I mean, and a lot of sunscreens are not as good in blocking UVA rays as they're blocking UVB rays. So a lot of their arguments go that, yes, you're even in winter, you're exposed to UVA rays, which may be true, but then a lot of sunscreens are just really bad at filtering the UVA. So they're just basically preventing you from burning, like they're filtering the UVB rays. They're like much better at that. So that doesn't make much sense. Like with the UV index of zero in the middle of winter here.
Jessica: Yeah, no, that is super interesting, super helpful, because I always wonder, I am someone that I mean, I will go outside, you know, go on a little bit of a walk for 30 minutes, and I want my, my skin on my face to get sunlight, which I think a lot of people would be like, Oh my gosh, you're in your 30s. And you're doing that, oh, my gosh, you're gonna age so fast. But I think, for me, it definitely keeps my skin healthier. And I've noticed that but yeah, I'm gonna go and bake all day, then I definitely dawn on some zinc based sunscreen.
Sara: It’s a different story. And also the health and the health of our skin barrier, obviously is going to be a major factor in how your skin actually responds to the sun. So going back to PUFAs, maybe consumption of industrial seed oils, you know, loading our cell membranes with these, like, you know, very low oxidized fatty acids will make you more susceptible to sunburn and to sun damage. So it's not really just about the sun, the impact of the sun, but how your skin is responding to that sun. So I think this is kind of like just not talked about at all really, like there's no no nuance there.
Jessica: Yeah. It's really like a holistic approach. It's not just isolated to the skin. So going to diet, I know that you work with a lot of women who are already very conscious of their diet and are already very interested in nutrition and health. Do you notice certain dietary triggers being a part of people's acne, I know that you have talked extensively about coffee being one of your triggers. And no matter how you've tried it again, and again, and again, no matter how you try it, it just seems to trigger you. I'm just curious if you found other triggers like that, and you could speak a little bit more about that.
Sara: So I'm gonna address coffee first. And I can go to like the common triggers. So for me, since I had a history of kind of like bit extreme estrogen dominance. So on hormonal birth control, I used to have really very painful migraines, I had like a lot of other symptoms of estrogen dominance. So for me, I think coffee was really just adding to the problem, like I couldn't tolerate even the smallest amount of like quality coffee. And like, a lot of times, it wasn't really that top quality a lot of the time. So I think maybe also that played played a role. So I think, well, you will know this better than me. But in the liver, you know, the the waste, estrogen and caffeine are kind of like process in the same pathway. So I think if we're already overwhelmed with the waste estrogen, like I was, you just cannot tolerate any extra caffeine. Then there's also other active substances in coffee, which could potentially, I guess, impact us maybe dehydrated skin, so I kind of like would always notice my skin being more dehydrated. So nowadays, I can have it occasionally without any issue, decaf is a tiny bit better, not great. Whereas with green tea, matcha, things like that, I can have it much more frequently without problem. So there is something specific about coffee. For me personally, I've definitely worked with a lot of clients who had no issue with coffee. For a lot of others, they did indeed have issues with coffee, but then they were able to reintroduce it once they resolved like other stressful triggers on their body. So I think the coffee really just can add to the overall stress that we're dealing with. That's, you know, kind of stress response in the body. So if your cup is already overflowing, this just kind of like make it you know, that much worse. So I think, yeah, this is kind of like on the coffee question. I think it's, it's kind of like good to experiment a little bit for yourself and see where you stand because it is a powerful substance, you know, like, it's not to be treated as lightly. So I think people you know, like to just kind of like, check off all the boxes, like, Oh, I'm gonna now follow pro metabolic, I'm just gonna, you know, do all the sourdough, orange juice, coffee, like whatever, and I'm gonna be, you know, it's gonna be fine. And then something doesn't work out quite as they thought. And that's, oh, this whole thing is like, you know, horrible right now, like you just like, there is some bio individuality which we have to respect. So, for the other triggers that I've observed, I think the biggest issue is actually lack of nutrients, I've oftentimes seen how lack of protein lack of, you know, fat soluble vitamins, especially vitamin A, bioavailable vitamin A, how lack of those can really start to impact the skin. So protein, obviously, so immensely important for regulating blood sugar, for tissue repair, for hormonal health, for so many things. Again, you know this better than I do. And so I will oftentimes see just how adjusting the daily protein intake especially for breakfast can have such a positive impact on skin health, and like how clear your skin is. And then with like vitamin A, for example, this is one of those very important nutrients that will regulate the cell turnover in the skin. So your skin kind of like gets to be very sluggish in renewing itself. And so if the new skin cells are traveling very slowly to the surface, they're maturing, that's optimally also the dead skin cells that are on the surface are not going to be shedding of your skin when they're supposed to, instead, they're going to be clogging up your skin. So a lot of the times especially in like more, you know, let's say vegan diets, that obviously you know, will lack bioavailable, retinol, vitamin A, their skin can get so congested, like nothing really topical that is supposed to work on the congestion actually works. So they try like all the retinas or exfoliants and nothing ever fixes that skin texture, it only gets fixed once they really start to get enough of vitamin A via diet. So this is like I think one of the most common things that I see and again especially because we have a lot of us have history with different medications that really deplete us because you know, we do need a lot of nutrients to like run things like you know, support hormonal health. And in today's world, we arguably have food that is maybe less nutritious than it was you know 50, 70 years ago, whereas actually our nutrient demands have maybe increased because of increased toxic load you know, there's chronic stress there's this and that and so it creates really dislike unfavorable situation where again, your liver is kind of like overwhelmed. You don't have enough nutrients to even support basic functions and let alone beautiful glowing skin. So those will be I think, like the top top reasons it's much less about certain foods and when people like to demonize dairy. I have not seen that many issues with quality dairy, especially if we stick to things like butter, the Parmesan cheese, usually even people who react to other dairy, who are acne prone can tolerate at least ghee. And it's actually very beneficial because of the fat soluble vitamins that the skin loves. So, some other triggers, I would not say that any actual ancestral food is a trigger, it's really just like these modern inventions, I like to call them like modern fanken foods, you know, from industrial seed oils to emulsifiers, additives, all the stuff that we just like invented in the last 100 years, that are the issue more so. So basically processed foods, more so than really any ancestral foods, you know, again, now, there's a trend of demonizing eggs and how they're so inflammatory. I mean, you know, maybe for some, but not for, you know, majority. So.
Jessica: Right, right. It's like the typical gluten, dairy eggs. And yes, yeah.
Sara: The typical trio.
Jessica: Yeah, no, that's super interesting, I'm glad you really hit on the nutrient aspect of it. Because it is it's an important reminder over and over again, I love hearing how it really you've seen an impact the skin in your work, because it's true, it's like really does come down to having the tools and resources our organs need to do their jobs. So it always goes back to that and when we're so focused on restriction we often miss out on on what we actually need.
Sara: Yes, and I think that's why a lot of women have really heal with your pro metabolic approach I have so many clients come to me and say, I have like healed my relationship with food I finally, you know, see my health markers improve, I can finally feel like human again, basically, you know, because we have lived in this restriction for so long, kind of like trying to whip our body into submission trying to whip our skin into submission by trying to control it with like a 10 step routine, while at the same time you're trying excessive cardio to keep your weight down, you are trying this restricted diet, you know, like all the things you're supposed to do and never really just nourishing yourself, you know, providing with all the nutrients inherited, your body really needs. And so as you say yourself so eloquently always, like our body doesn't run on thin air, like our skin cannot be glowing and healthy out of thin air. Like there has to be an input of energy and nutrients.
Jessica: Absolutely. Absolutely. So I mean just wonderful information. I I'm trying to think of a way for if women are sitting here saying like okay, mee, me, me, me, is there any specific things you're looking for when you are looking for a damaged skin barrier? So if some women are thinking, I think I might have a damaged skin barrier, but I'm not sure if that's me or not? What are some specific things to look for?
Sara: Really good question. So I would say your skin feeling kind of dehydrated and dry. Even if you're applying a rich moisturizer is one of the very common signs. So our skin is going to lose much more water from the skin, like through the skin than optimal if your skin barrier is leaky and dysfunctional. So that is usually the case a lot of people kind of just think that they need to find a better moisturizer, like that's another problem, you have to really repair your skin barrier. So that's like very common one. Also, some other people will have this dehydrated skin situation, but then their skin kind of gets oily throughout the day. So it's kind of like dry in the morning, oily throughout the day, because the skin is trying to put some extra layer of protection, you know, on itself, like against the harsh environment against further loss of water. So it's going to over produce sebum throughout today. So this is also a very, very common sign. Some other signs would be it really makes it easy for me if I look at someone's skin history, which as I always do with my clients and I will see what skincare they have been using so far. And I can almost always deduce, okay, this has actually been inflaming your skin barrier. This is why you're struggling with acne. This is why you're struggling, with you know, perioral dermatitis or skin texture or like dull skin or whatever it might be. So I can usually tell from the skin history. Now after almost a decade of like looking different skin and like you know, working with people I can sometimes even tell just by looking at someone's skin, but it often isn't as obvious. So people imagine that their skin barrier is going to let's say be damaged only if they see red, flaky, rashy skin but that's really the most extreme case. A lot of people are not ever going to reach that stage. For a lot of people. They're going to exist in this stage where they think that oh, my skin is just a bit naturally dry. Or I'm just breaking out I'm just acne prone you know, things like that. I just, I'm purging I'm going to suck purging phase. Like no, you're just maybe irritating and inflaming your skin barrier. That is usually what's going on.
Jessica: Okay, that's super helpful. That's super helpful. I mean, I could, I could talk to you about this stuff for for hours. But I feel like it gives a great primer for people who have been doing trial and error trial and error and trial and error and trial and error with all their skin care, and not really finding any success. That simpler is better. If somebody wants to work with you or learn more about this from you, where can they find you? Where can they get more Sara?
Sara: Oh, thank you so much, I can talk to you all day long. So they can find me I'm @healthyskinglows on you know, Instagram, my website. So healthyskinglows.com. So if you go to my website or my Instagram, you can easily find my free resource. So there is a free skincare course. And inside there, I put a few videos just explaining a lot of the concepts that we cover today as well with the skin barrier, how we irritate the skin unknowingly, how we spread information around unknowingly things like that. But it also made a PDF with just hundreds of different products, ingredients and skincare practices that are irritating that we need to remove in order for the skin to heal. So when healing the skin barrier, you really cannot heal if you're doing something on a daily basis that is just irritating the skin. And this can be a small thing, this can just be let's say using a konjac sponge every single day or something like that, you know, something, let's say inconspicuous. So, there's definitely a lot of ways, a lot of kind of like traps to fall into. So definitely go download that free resource to get you started. A lot of people have healed just by removing the stuff that they don't need just by giving the skin the space and time to heal itself. You know, simple things would be just to really simplify your routine. Inside my course I teach or like how to implement the minimum effective dose principle to skincare, which is basically the minimal dose you need to get the desired results. So for example, if you can have moisturized skin with minimal light moisturizer, don't use three hydrating serums. Like why apply extra 200 ingredients if you don't need them, you're just you're just disturbing your skin barrier in your skin microbiome, right? So we just want to really simplify wherever we can, even if you have amazing products. And actually, this is again, going back to the beginning of our podcast, where we talked about how people get really pulled into to these like very beautiful products. And a lot of my clients use really great products amazing chock full of beautiful ingredients, but it's just all too much when taken together. Right? And this is where a lot of issues start. So yeah.
Jessica: Oh super helpful. Well, so many resources, I love Sara's resources. You have a mini course right and then you have a book.
Sara: And then you get the book is like $5 on Amazon, it can teach you so much like this is really distilled knowledge from like, 10 years.
Jessica: So much and just so much information that's so helpful and actionable. And just straight to the point. I just love it because it's no BS like there's just no, like fluff, there's not fluff.
Sara: Yes, I really wanted two people to just like read it in one sitting and just implement info straightaway. Like that was that was my point. Like, my point was not to make something that people are going to like spend a week reading through, you know, searching the research, like no, just like, you know, actionable no nonsense info that I think just really can resonate with people. So yeah, basically really just like this steal from so many years of you know, observing patterns in the real world and what works and what doesn't. So a lot of people really have gotten really great results just by following those very simple principles. And there's also a very simple routine to follow that is outlined in the eBook. So I think people can also just like start there, I think it's a really good starting point as well.
Jessica: That's awesome. Well, I will include all those links below for anyone who's interested. Thank you so much for being here, Sara, I appreciate you so much.
Sara: Such an honor. Thank you so much.
Episode Links
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The Skin Barrier Fix ebook - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BWYNZNN9
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